Byzantine Warhammer Ancient Battles Army

Archer Comparison: Gripping Beast and Crusader

2006-08-11T13:51:00.000-07:00

Inspired by the man from Battlegames I have brought the remainder of the Byzantine unit forward on my workbench, now that my first unit of Sudan Beja are finished (although I am still working on the Mahdi!).

I bought a small group of Crusader Archers off Mark Sims on e-bay to see what they are like. As you can see they are very short and stocky compared with the GB ones. Not compatible at all for me. I will probably paint them up and sell them on e-bay unless someone at Guildford wants them.

Back to Byzantines

2008-01-08T02:23:00.000-08:00

I haven't posted anything here for nearly eighteen months and haven't painted anything for even longer than that but, when looking at the Crusader Publishing site yesterday, I noted that they are planning to do some Byzantine Allies in the future. I like what Mark Sims is doing with the Punic Wars; turning out enough packs of what most people think of as subsidiary nations to actually form an army and hope that he will take the same approach with Byzantines.

So I went straight home and got out my pack of Crusader unarmoured Byzantine archers, which I had already based and undercoated. A couple of hours and I had all the base colours down. This morning I added the sand to the base ready to paint the base this evening or tomorrow (as I am out to dinner!). Some of the Crusader figures, these included, are rather small for 28s and certainly they are tiny next to the Gripping Beast ones (see two posts ago) but they are really easy and quick to paint (unlike GB) and I know that they look much better painted. I should really be going for GB as their figures are more detailed but they changed scales half way through the range which was really annoying. Also Crusader do nice Normans, Spanish and Vikings which can be used as Normans in Italy.

Byzantine Archers

2008-01-13T15:05:00.000-08:00

I finished eight Crusader archers today; my first Byzantine figures since August 2006! Very easy to paint (which actually means I was more slapdash than usual!) although rather chunkier than I like. I think I have a pack of cavalry to paint somewhere so maybe I'll do those next. The LBMS buckler transfers help a lot!

2006-08-29T13:54:00.000-07:00

Someone has just asked on TMP what a GB Byzantine looks like on an A&A horse. So here it is.

2006-08-11T13:40:00.000-07:00

Standard Bearer

The second figure is finished. Not bad: two figures in nine months! Maybe I don't love them! The figures are a bit basic. Interestingly, I have painted 8 Carolingians in the last six weeks so obviously enjoy painting them more.

I have just read issue 3 of Battlegames where a rather pompous man is showing off that he painted a whole Byzantine army in a month!

This GB figure has a huge nose and looks rather like Parker from Thunderbirds, I think...

2005-12-13T08:32:00.000-08:00

Gripping Beast Delivers

My wife has just rung me to say my GB parcel has arrived (its taken 12 days. Not bad I suppose but its just Crudsader were so fast!). Irritatingly I have to go out to dinner with a bunch of government people tonight so I won't be able to open it until the early hours. At least it's a Michelin starred restaurant!

2005-12-16T05:44:00.000-08:00

Varangian Guard

Very pleased with the GB Varangoi. They, at least, are compatible with the regular infantry. GB also had the grace to apologise for the length of time it took the order to arrive (still only 12 days so mustn't be too churlish!).

2006-01-07T07:36:00.000-08:00

First Completed Figure

Here is the first Gripping Beast infantryman. Not bad to paint although the lamellar armour was a little indistinct and I am not happy with it on this one which was done under artificial light. Hopefully the next one will be a bit better. The Little Big Man studios shield transfer is wonderful, of course.

2006-01-15T14:07:00.000-08:00

Spear Colours

I have always painted my spears plain brown (based largely on the handle of my garden rake!) but a post today on The Minatures Page got me thinking about it and I found this photograph in Kim Siddorn's book Viking Weapons and Warfare. A fair old collection of shades and I think I might mix them up a bit and go rather yellower as a result.

2005-11-09T06:12:00.000-08:00

Which Army?

The purpose of this page is to enable me to get my thoughts in order (and explore a new medium) as I build a WAB army rather than for any great educative purposes. Hopefully, by having this on line it will force me to concentrate on the project rather than get distracted by other things such as Back of Beyond, Elizabethans, Mountain men, Dutch Belgian Napoleonic and other things where a nice range of figures sends me off on a tangent.

I had been interested in doing a Byzantine Army since the recent new Gripping Beast and Crusader figures started to come out. When I bought the Warhammer Ancient Battles Byzantium: Beyond the Golden Gate supplement (very much the best of these, in my opinion) I realised that it was all more complicated than I thought and I would need to decide which period Byzantine Army would be best, as the troops look very different in different periods.

I was also inspired by several novels I have read recently. The first are Tom Harper's two books (The Mosaic of Shadows and the Knights of the Cross) set around the time of the First Crusade (around 1095) and featuring a "detective" from Constantinople and his Varangian associates. There is not much military action in the first one (although it does give a good feeling for Constantinople) but the second features the siege of Antioch and while more appropriate to building a First Crusades Army does have the Varagnians in action. The third in the trilogy, Siege of Heaven, is due out in February 2006 (not long to wait!) and will focus on the siege of Jerusalem.

The second book is Tim Severin's recently published conclusion to his Viking Trilogy (Viking: King's Man) which features a section set during the Byzantine campaign against the Saracens in Sicily (around 1040 I reckon). I have been vacillating over what sort of Byzantine army I should build for some time. In many ways a Justinian army would suit me better as I am planning to build a Sassanid army to take on my A&A 3rd Centry Romans, and this would provide an extra opponent. The only really suitable figures, however, are Old Glory, which I don't like (due to the variable quality and requirement to buy large bags) and Chiltern Miniatures (ex-Whitecross) figures. These are better but a little on the small side and lacking in variety of poses.

The passage in Tim Severin's book where regular Byzantine troops, including cataphracts and menaulatoi combine with Norman mounted mercenaries and Varangians to take on the Saracens at Syracuse has decided me, however. I now plan to prduce a Thematic army for the first half of the 11th century.

2005-12-08T03:43:00.000-08:00

Painting started

I actually started painting some of the GB infantry last night. They are going to be reasonably easy I think. Not too much guesswork as to what particular lumps are as is some times the case with GB but I suspect they will be more fiddly than the Crusader figures. Hopefully, I will finish one this weekend and put it up here. No shield transfers yet as my GB order still hasn't arrived.

2005-11-30T02:27:00.000-08:00

First Unit

Well, I bought my first unit at Warfare in Reading the other week. I was really intending to buy the Crusader figures but having looked at both those and the Gripping Beast figures I went for GB. I think it was the level of detail I was impressed by and the fact that the Crusader figures have rather odd proportions. The GB figures are not ideal and the faces, in particular, are very crude but we will see how they paint up. I have based a unit of twenty foot. But they also have nice Normans (which I hadn't looked at before-not as nice as the Perry Crusaders but still nice), Islamic figures, Rus and others which will all be compatible.

I bought:

BYZ05 Command with large teardrop shields 1 pack (I went into a panic when asked which type of shield I wanted as I hadn't thought about it-I think this is right for the period).

BYZ07 Armoured Infantry attacking 3 packs

BYZ08 Armoured Archers 2 packs

I have now based them as a unit of 20 with 5 archers in the rear rank. I used a mixed foot archery unit in an Armies of Chivalry game the other week and they work quite well but as you round down for the archers firing (only half can shoot) a five man rank will only give me two shots. I don't want to go down to four figure ranks as one casulaty means you lose rank bonus but 6 figure ranks tie up quite a lot of figures when most people in the club seem to use 4 or 5 figure ranks. Combats never seem to last long enough to bother about having figures for lapping around. I also prefer the look of figures with odd numbers of figures as it means I can have my command group surrounded by equal numbers either side. I can always build bigger units later.

2005-11-10T09:20:00.001-08:00

Which Manufacturer?

My interest in particular armies is primarily visual: I have no great interest in the politics, history or economics of the Byzantine Empire; although no doubt that will develop as I read into the subject. I tend to buy my figures based on the sculptor and rarely find ranges where the sculptors are anonymous where I like the figures (an exception being the A&A 3rd Century Romans). I also prefer to buy my armies using one manufacturer. I think it is actually very rare to find two manufacturers whose figures really are compatible in one unit and I am constantly amazed when people say that such and such a figure works fine with another maker when I think that they have quite different builds and sizes. For this period I think I am going to have to mix however so it is just a question of whose figures I use for the majority of my forces.

Having looked at what is out there the choice for figures is going to be between Gripping Beast http://www.grippingbeast.com/shop.php?CatID=138 and Crusader http://www.crusaderminiatures.com/catalog_frames.asp?sub_range=DA . In order to decide which ones to go for I need to analyse their respective ranges. I don’t believe that the two are really compatible in size but I need to order a couple of packs to check. I have also heard via The Miniatures Page that the later GB figures are a different size from the earlier ones: an annoying habit of figure manufacturers which puts me right off!

First off I will look at the Varangians as they are likely to be the first unit I build as I love Norsemen and the only figure I currently own is Harald Hardrada as a Varangian officer which was a free gift with Beyond the Golden Gate. This figure was sculpted by Mark Sims of Crusader and is very nice. If all his Byzantine range is like this then it could be a good bet.

Gripping Beast offer 4 packs of Varangians:
BYZ01 Command (2 officers) a musician and standard bearer
BYZ02 Warriors (spearmen)
BYZ03 Palace Guard
BYZ04 Axemen

So sixteen different figures. Technically the palace guard wouldn’t fight in their full dress uniforms but I will need some for the Emperor’s retinue.

Crusader currently only offer 2 packs of Varangians:
DAB006 Varangian Guard with spears
DAB007 Varangian guard in parade dress.

However I believe that their will be 1 or 2 more packs of Varangians as DAB008 and 009 have not been allocated yet.

The GB spearmen figures are much more animated than the Crusader ones who are standing with spears upright. The poses of the Palace/parade dress figures are much more similar and one is identical ,based as they are on and Angus McBride illustration from the Osprey book Byzantine Armies 886-1118. The GB axemen are all in mid-swing but I have to say I don’t think that they are as nice as the GB Viking Double Handed axemen. These figures were much more anatomically correct than the more recent GB figures (Byzantine included) which are tending towards the dreaded (by me anyway) “big head syndrome”. I don’t think the current GB sculptors are a patch on the Pattens. I think I will pick up a unit of the GB axemen and the Crusader parade dress figures at Warfare in Reading in 10 days time and compare them for size. I suspect GB will be considerably taller.

Grippin Beast weapons packs also offer much more "in scale" gear. The axes on the Crusader figures are part of the moulding and so have pick-axe handle hafts. In addition GB offer Rus and other late Viking and Saxon Axemen who might boost the Varangians. So for this unit I am tending towards GB. I just need to see them in the flesh..

2005-12-03T05:50:00.000-08:00

Cavalry 1: Rider Comparisons

I ordered some Crusader Byzantine cavalry to compare with the GB cavalry I bought at Warfare. The service was excellent: I ordered them on the afternoon of the 1st and they arrived on the morning of the 3rd. This first photo shows four riders from the front, the second from the rear.

From left to right:

GB BZC16 Generals and Standard Bearers, GB Kavallariori BZC02, Crusader DAB 101 Thematic/Tagmatic Kataphraktoi and DAB 103 Crusader Klibanophoroi.

I had heard that the newer GB figures were bigger than the old ones and, sadly, this is true. The GB Command are recent figures and are huge compared to the earlier kavallariori. I wouldn’t mix them in the same army let alone in the same unit. I will be selling them on.

The GB Kavallarioros and Crusader Kataphraktos are certainly compatible, although the Crusader figures are all bearded and the GB ones are clean shaven. Oddly, the Crusader Klibanophoros is slightly smaller than the regular cavalryman but it’s not too noticeable. The Crusader figure come with saddle cloths modelled on the riders. The GB ones do not. It would certainly be possible to put GB figure on Crusader horses with the addition of a saddle cloth.

The GB riders don't seem to be the same size as the infantry at all. The earlier figures look smaller than the GB infantry (as are the Crusader ones) the later figures are much larger. Very annoying.

2005-12-06T03:39:00.000-08:00

Cavalry 2: The horses

Here is a comparison of four horses:

Left to right: Gripping Beast old, Gripping Beast new, Crusader normal, Crusader armoured.

The new GB horse is a little larger than the old one but still looks very small with its huge new rider. The Crusader horses are much larger, although the fully barded horse is smaller than the normal one. The saddle on the Crusader barded horse looks too high for where its back should be.

This picture shows a Crusader rider and mount (left) next to a Gripping Beast one (right).

The riders are, in fact, similar in size (see below) but the difference in horse size makes the Crusader figure as a whole seem much larger.

All in all, not very satisfactory but on balance I think I will go with the Crusader cavalry and the gripping beast infantry.

2005-12-07T02:24:00.000-08:00

Cavalry conundrum

Well, I went home last night and looked at all the horses and riders again. I have decided that the Crusader horses for normal cavalry are too big compared with their Kataphraktoi horses. The Gripping Beast horses look fine with the Crusader Kataphractoi horses. I think what I need to do is get some GB heavy cavalry and see how it looks. The fear is that it will be the large figures like in the command pack. Oh well. I am sure I can work out some combination that will work. The problem is that GB are not very fast in send ing stuff. I ordered from Perry Miniatures, Crusader and GB last Thursday and both the Perry and Crusader stuff arrived on Saturday. I am still waiting for the GB stuff.